The Ex-Sales Rep Who Built a Niche Law Firm Most Lawyers Could Never Copy

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What happens when a career in healthcare sales unexpectedly leads to building a successful niche law firm? In this episode, Allyson shares how her unconventional path to law—starting in healthcare sales and marketing before attending law school in her 30s—gave her a unique advantage in running and growing a law firm. Instead of focusing only on legal work, she leaned into operations, marketing, and strategy, discovering that her true strength was building the business behind the practice.

Allyson also explains how her partnership with fellow attorney evolved over time. With complementary skill sets—her focus on operations and growth, and his strength in litigation and legal work—they built a firm centered around healthcare and pharmacy law. 

Their niche developed naturally through their backgrounds in healthcare and pharmacy operations, which eventually even led them to step in-house to run a pharmacy company for several years before returning to grow their law firm full time.

Throughout the conversation, Allyson shares practical insights about law firm leadership, including hiring experts from the industries they serve, creating productized compliance services for clients, and using her sales background to build relationships and market the firm creatively. 

Her story highlights how diverse career experiences, clear communication with partners, and a willingness to think beyond traditional legal services can create a thriving and highly specialized law practice. Listen in.

• 1:37 How sales thinking shapes law firm operations
• 4:45 Hard conversations about the firm’s long-term future
• 10:04 How operating a healthcare business improved their legal advice
• 15:35 Hiring experts who previously worked inside the industry
• 20:06 Expanding the firm with productized compliance services
• 27:24 Lessons learned from working in sales
• 31:30 Creative marketing ideas that helped stand out
• 47:11 Complementary leadership styles within the partnership
  
  
  

 Tune in to today’s episode and checkout the full show notes here. 


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Creators and Guests

Host

Tyson Mutrux

Tyson is the founder of Mutrux Firm Injury Lawyers and the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer.

What is Maximum Lawyer?

Maximum Lawyer is the podcast for law firm owners who want to scale with intention and build a business that works for their life.

Hosted by Tyson Mutrux, each weekly episode features candid conversations with law firm owners, business experts, and industry leaders sharing real strategies and lessons learned in the trenches.

If you're ready to grow your firm with less stress and more support, this is your next must listen. Subscribe today.

Allyson 00:00:03 All right, Allyson, I want to start with this. What was it like? Because you you started on the health care side, right? Yes. Okay.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:10 First career was in healthcare sales and Tyson Mutruxeting.

Allyson 00:00:13 All right. So you kind of saw, like, the business side of things. How did that help you when it comes to running a law firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:21 Well, it helps when you for one. So I did have a nontraditional path to law school. I had a career before I went to law school. I went to law school in my 30s. And so it just helps run a law firm because you understand what you have to do day in and day out. just to meet the minimum requirements of of being an adult, you have to be, receptive to people. You have you have people that, you know, are your are your boss. You have to report to and and you see the decisions that they make with personnel. And sometimes you're brought into those decisions. Sometimes you're not brought into those decisions.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:10 you learn things as you go, just like you do being a law firm owner. And, and so, it does help, if you've had I think it helps if you've had a career before being a law firm owner, other than being a lawyer.

Allyson 00:01:27 I would agree. I think it's pretty helpful. It gives you a little bit of context in life, almost. is sales because of your background? Is it a pretty big part of what you will do with the law firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:37 Yes. It's that's the part that I enjoy the most is the the business operations and the Tyson Mutruxeting. I, I am fortunate to have a partner. Who is. He's he's a very good attorney. He loves being an attorney. and he will compliment me and he will say, Allison, you're an excellent attorney, too. And. But what I really feel my strength is, is, is operating the law firm, because when you're in sales, you're looking whether you're selling a product or a service, you're you're looking for what is my ideal customer? How do I find them? How do I identify them? How do I set myself apart from the competition? How do I find the most profitable customer? or are there things I can do with my pricing where I can do the same amount of work and and be more profitable? So those are the things I really love about running the law firm and and looking at the data, trying new things, seeing what works.

Allyson 00:02:44 You're using a vocabulary that they don't really teach in law school. So I wonder when it comes to your law partner, what? Did he speak the same language as you when it comes to that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:54 No, initially he didn't. so my law partner, Tyson Mutrux, is we met in law school and we were night law students. And so we were in an environment where we all had careers. And we went we went to work all day, and then we went to law school at night. which is a really interesting experience. it's a unique experience. one I don't want to repeat ever. But, the, the people that I had the privilege of going to law school with was reTyson Mutruxable. And Tyson Mutrux was a pharmacist before he went to law school. And so initially, you know, he was not I feel like I'm sort of the one who encouraged him. You know, you have you have a really special gift, and you have a skill set. and I don't I don't see why you would go work for someone else.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:49 and so it was it was a path to get to our law firm ownership. and initially, I don't I don't know that he saw the vision. I would talk about where where do you see us in five years? And he would say, I'm just putting my head down and doing the work, but I will. I will say, now, we are aligned in sort of the law firm ownership vision. It is it is a business. and of course, we've grown over the last eight years since we've been doing it full time. So we're in a in a better position to, to have the clients and the type of casework that we want to do. We have people working for us that can do other types of work. So I will give props to Tyson Mutrux. He's he's come a long way in his vision.

Allyson 00:04:40 What did it take to get the two of you on the same page when it comes to that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:45 just a lot of hard conversations about what we wanted and and what we wanted for the future.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:56 Again, when we were, you know, when we were starting out, we weren't young people to begin with. and I would love to be that young again now, but we weren't young people. You know, to begin with. And Tyson Mutrux's ten years older than me now, so I'm in my mid 40s and he's in his mid 50s. And so it was just it was really a lot of hard conversations about do we have the same vision. what is it? You know, what does it do that we really want to do to grow the firm? And, you know, at someday to be able to enjoy, enjoy the the fruits of our labor more, you know, step away from the firm a little bit more, have it operate more independently of us, which is always a work in progress. And then, you know, I always make the joke, I, I, I don't want to build point ones until the day I die. So, it was just a lot of hard conversations to, to get to a point where we were aligned.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:58 And, you know, pharmacists tend to be conservative people. And, you know, so I think just the idea of him working for himself and how am I going to get enough business to to support myself and my business partner, let alone, you know, now we've got about 25 people. And so that took some time. I think for him to, to grow the confidence that, yes, we can we can really do that. And he's he's an excellent partner, an excellent business operator as well.

Allyson 00:06:27 How would you pick your niche?

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:30 Well, because of Tyson Mutrux. Tyson Mutrux is a pharmacist by his first career. we met in law school, and he knew that I had been in healthcare sales and Tyson Mutruxeting. And so after law school, he went to a big a big law firm here in, in Phoenix that has a big, health law, pharmacy group practice specifically And I went to my brother's law firm, and I ran their Social Security disability department for a couple of years, and I didn't.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:00 I didn't love that. I learned a lot from my brother about law firm ownership. And, you know, he was he was sort of my mentor. but eventually I called Tyson Mutrux and I said, hey, I just wanted to touch base with you, see what you're doing. And and he said, well, I like being at the big law firm, but it's hard to be a 43 year old associate.

Allyson 00:07:22 I bet it is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:23 Yes. And and so and so he says. But, you know, the the value of being here is that I've learned, you know, there really isn't any magic. And the people here are wonderful and they're very smart people. But I think with our backgrounds, we we could do we could do justice, go to work. And so and he said, I know that you would like health law with your with your background. It's something that I can teach you. It's something different, something new every day. And, and so that's really what drove drove the niche of the firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:58 is, his background, his network of people. for a while, we were pulled in house by a client, and we ran their mail order pharmacy business here in Scottsdale.

Allyson 00:08:11 Interesting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:12 So that was a very interesting opportunity. For a few years we did that. And then ultimately we went back to the law firm full time.

Allyson 00:08:19 Wow. Okay, we gotta talk about this. I was going to go somewhere else with this, but. Okay, so you have a firm, you've, you've and I want to get back to the conversation about how it started, but I want to I want to stay on this for a second. Sure. So you have this firm, you started this firm, and then all of a sudden, you get this offer to go inhouse and, like, does the firm then dissolve?

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:40 So, no, the firm did not dissolve. I would say that we were dormant for a few years, like the firm existed as a legal entity, but we didn't have any outside clients.

Allyson 00:08:52 Did you bring all your people with you at that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:54 At the time, the people were Tyson Mutrux and I.

Allyson 00:08:56 Okay. So it was just two of you. Okay. So you didn't have any staff? No. Okay. Did you feel like it's at some point that you had sold out your dream to come in house?

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:08 No, it's it's interesting. We we felt like we were on top of the world to go inhouse.

Allyson 00:09:19 Really?

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:19 Yes. Because. So Tyson Mutrux. Tyson Mutrux was brought on as CEO and then he brought me on as general counsel. And looking back on it, it was such a critical experience to where we are now as law firm owners, because we were actually for a few years, we were more in the position of our clients, running and operating this pharmacy operation. And we grew it from, you know, one pharmacy in Scottsdale. you know, had to expand in the alley across the street to another pharmacy and a call center here in South Scottsdale, and then building and buying pharmacies all over the country, including one in Puerto Rico, which is fascinating.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:04 So it was it was honestly the best paid education we could have, we could have gotten. And I think that's one thing I really value is the position that it put us in, just to learn to be exposed, to a network of people. And, and really, it makes us, I think, more sympathetic to our clients and more, you know, we have a better capacity to understand their business challenges. Like, it's very hard to operate a compliant, profitable health care business. And so to understand their challenges and have been in those shoes, and I think that just makes us better external counsel now, because we pride ourselves on giving our clients like real answers. You know, this is what the law says, but not just the risk. Or, you know, this is low risk, high risk. But, you know, this is the enforcement position of the regulatory agencies. And, you know, this is what we would do if we were operating your business. This is how you can implement it and operationalize it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:16 And so that experience was so valuable.

Allyson 00:11:20 So you weren't just brought inhouse, you were coming in and running a company, which is really interesting, I guess. How did that how did that whole idea present itself? Like, how did that offer present itself?

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:32 So, when Tyson Mutrux was working at the big firm in Phoenix, they brought on a client that, you know, sort of had an idea about about, manufacturing and running a pharmacy and, And so around the time he and I formed the law firm, he, he left the big firm, and he took, this client with him as a client. And the interesting thing about our clients is that they can use all sorts of law firms, you know, for different, different purposes. I mean, and, you know, sometimes, depending on what the client needs, you know, they need to go to the big law firm if they need an army of people to stay up all night and file an injunction in federal court. And so, so our clients are unique in that way where they don't usually just have one law firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:24 And so, you know, that's not that's not out of the ordinary. But we were doing some we were doing some work for them. and then they, they came to Tyson Mutrux and they said, you know, we really, we really need to hire like, this is not just a Scottsdale pharmacy anymore. it's, you know, and because of certain Tyson Mutruxet forces with, the insurance companies that that pay pharmacies. They needed to expand their footprint. So that's what that's what brought Tyson Mutrux and I and to. To the fold. And that's how they approached them.

Allyson 00:13:00 What a cool idea. Like what? What fascinates me is the fact that you two have kind of switched roles where, like, now you're running the firm and he's more of legal counsel, which is kind of interesting. Has that dawned on you?

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:13 Yeah. It's interesting. Yes.

Allyson 00:13:15 So how did that okay. So how did that happen now when you all were running the first version of the firm, were you in the same position as you are now or did you flip flop?

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:26 No.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:27 I mean, when the firm initially started, we were just doing whatever had to be done. Okay. And and so, you know.

Allyson 00:13:34 No pecking order. No. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:36 No, no, I mean, I was you know, I was, I was, I would say practicing more at that time, and so we were just, you know, we always say just shooting the zombie closest to us, whatever had to be done.

Allyson 00:13:51 It's a really, really smart way of putting it. That's. That's right. Very accurate. Yeah. So. But okay, so you you you flipped roles, from the, the company that you went inhouse for and then what, what played in the decision to actually go with, okay, you're going to be running the company. He's going to be legal counsel. Like, why'd you make that decision?

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:14 I was very clear in my I've always I feel like I've always been very clear in my communications that this is what I like to do. This would be my goal would be to focus more on the law firm management, the law firm operation and the law firm growth.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:39 and of course, we collaborate on, everything. for the most part, you know. but I've just always been very clear in. I thought my goal in going to law school would be to be a business owner or a law firm operator. and I thought that that was more my strength than getting in the weeds of, you know, some regulatory analysis or being a litigator. and I'm just I'm fortunate that we've been able to hire very good people that are, frankly, better at that than I am.

Allyson 00:15:15 Let's talk about that, because you had that three, three year break where you were working for the company, and that was after you'd been running the firm. Did you have any employees? So you seems like you've you've had quite a bit of growth when it comes to at least staff. So how were you how have you been able to hire good people so quickly? That's I mean, it's it's not an easy task to do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:35 No, it's not easy. And it's, It's not easy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:43 We have looked for people. I would say one of our strengths is trying to draw on people that have experience in in the field, but maybe have been on the other side of the table. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. One of our attorneys used to be the attorney for some of the regulatory boards, and here is here in Arizona. So he would prosecute cases for the nursing board or for the pharmacy board. and he was one of our first attorney hires. and so that was a pretty natural move for him, was to come to the private sector. And now he defends health care providers when they have complaints in front of their regulatory boards. but that's been a blessing because he knows the administrative law. So. Well, he knows those boards so well. another hire we were able to make was actually not an attorney. we have a pharmacist who used to be the national lead auditor for CVS CareTyson Mutrux, one of the one of the major PBMs. and we were able to bring him on and he helps our clients with their audits.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:08 which can be devastating to their business financially. and they can lose their network status. And we were able to hire, a pharmacist attorney who had been an inspector, a compliance inspector with the Arizona Board of Pharmacy. And when she retired from that position, she came to our firm. So we've tried to find and target people that have this sort of real life experience in the field. and then that translates well to our firm and to supporting our clients.

Allyson 00:17:41 That I think it's really smart. that's that's really interesting. Now, the pharmacist attorney, you said, is it an attorney that represents pharmacist or an actual another pharmacist that became an attorney?

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:51 Another pharmacist that became an attorney.

Allyson 00:17:52 Is there like some, like, stockpile of pharmacists that are wanting to become attorneys? Like what's going on with that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:56 So it's interesting. There's there's a obviously very niche. very there's a there's probably several hundred pharmacist attorneys in the nation. I don't, I don't know, maybe if I had to guess, I'd say maybe 500 to 1000.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:12 I don't know, maybe a couple thousand, but the, the, the the difference is like a lot of times there are people that they just go from pharmacy school to law school and they never actually practice really. And so like they have an education that's valuable. But you know, that was one of the things about my partner, Tyson Mutrux, is that he actually practiced for like 15 years before he went to law school. And so that is, you know, really where we, you know, we can say and we've run health care operations. I think that's what's really valuable to the clients. And so, you know, the education piece is certainly important, but someone that's like actually worked in a health care operation is is even more valuable.

Allyson 00:19:01 I'm curious about Tyson Mutrux. Did he work for one of like the smaller pharmacies that was then acquired by one of the bigger ones, or did he work for one of the bigger ones? Because it's hard to operate a smaller one in this.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:10 Yeah. So he's he's done it all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:11 I mean, he's done, you know, retail. he worked for, a compounding pharmacy here. that later became very large national compounding pharmacy network of pharmacies and then was later bought by one of the, by one of the health care insurance companies, and they're all vertically integrated now. So you have health insurance companies that own, pharmacy benefit managers that own their own their own pharmacies. And that's part of what we fight against, is those big conglomerates that are that are competing against our clients.

Allyson 00:19:54 Have you thought about doing some sort of vertical integration with the law firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:58 What do you mean?

Allyson 00:19:58 Like in any capacity? I wonder if you had if you've seen what's happening in the health care industry and maybe think, oh, we can do this over in the legal industry.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:06 Yeah. That's so I think what I have really become more interested in, even in the last couple of years, yes, is is really niching down. And I think like expanding the services that the firm offers to more, consultative and subscription types of services.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:34 and so expanding sort of like laterally. And I can give you an example of that. So and these are things that don't involve, you know, again, just the traditional law firm services billable by the hour services. and so it's developing products for our clients, like, you know, a compliance gap analysis for their operations so that we can inspect their operation just as a regulator would, and help them help ensure that they are meeting all of the legal criteria, all of the regulatory, regulatory criteria for any agency that will, that can oversee them and that can be their their state board of pharmacy, that can be the DEA. Sometimes that's the FDA. So they're, you know, many agencies that that can regulate our clients. And so that's something that we're moving into more is developing these product based things, that clients can, can purchase. and sometimes that's annuity business as well because, you know, they'll need an annual inspection. so that they can get their permit renewals or just to make sure that operationally, they don't have huge compliance gaps.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:56 and the nice thing about doing that in the law firm is that we can keep it. Attorney client privileged.

Allyson 00:22:00 Oh, that's a good point.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:02 So, yes. Big fan of that.

Allyson 00:22:05 Yeah. Well, that's that's a good idea. Is the idea for them is the selling point. You'll spend this smaller amount. Now that way you're not having to pay us hourly on the back end. Is that kind of the idea.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:14 Right. Right. It's a it's a more proactive compliance approach. for example, you know, I mentioned these pharmacy benefit managers, any of our clients that bill third party payers, have contracts with these payers and they will audit them because the insurance companies have hired the pharmacy benefit manager to audit a pharmacy. If they have a contract that's part of their service to their health health insurance client. And so we know our clients are going to get audited, and there's going to be documentation that they have to provide, you know, to prove that they have been compliant with the provider manual.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:57 And these are just contractual obligations. And so that's one of the products that we have is a PBM audit gap analysis is, you know, to really run the client through the rigors of an audit, just like they would have in the real world, and see if they can produce the documentation that they need to. because it's just a matter of time before they get audited. And some of these audits can be tens of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Ooh. and then they can lose their network status. So it really is, a proactive approach. And of course, you know, the law firm still gets clients that are really in a bind. You know, I had my board of pharmacy in here, the DEA, and they want to shut me down. And what do I do now? And so that's the obviously the reactive side, but I love the proactive side.

Allyson 00:23:49 well, I love that you you productize it and then you could, you could go out and sell that. You could, you could if you wanted to really create a sales team that goes out and just sells that.

Allyson 00:23:58 I think that's I think that's what's really cool about it because like with, like like I do personal intrigue, I can't go out and drive traffic like, I can't, I can't make people get into car crashes. Right. But I could sell the fear of this product. The PBM analysis, gap analysis. And I could go push that. I could actually send people out on a sales force out and go push this product. I think it's brilliant. Like where that idea come from.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:23 it's something that Tyson Mutrux and I have wanted to do, really, since running the law firm full time, which we started doing in about 2018 2019 after we left, the outside client job. it's something that we, we had a vision for, and we've slowly developed it over time. And now it's just sort of reaching a critical mass where it's like, okay, we have the product we're developing. you know, the, the programming and the coding to really make it more automated and produce a report at the end that's very, you know, very pretty and usable for the client.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:59 I mean, a lot of times we tell new, new new attorneys half the battles making it pretty. Absolutely. Yes. but yeah, just having, sort of the coding behind some of the, especially the audit gap analysis tool because you're, you're analyzing Excel spreadsheets and lots of data and things like that. So it's we're really hitting a critical point now where now we have the tool and we have something to sell.

Allyson 00:25:27 I something you said about that it's I want to make sure we don't overlook this, because a lot of it is in the presentation and it's so overlooked by people like, like what we'll do is like, well, if we sent like a, an analysis of a case to a client, like, I love, like branding it and making it look good, like it's an official thing. Clients eat that stuff up. It's it's a little bit of extra time to really. It just it just adds this extra oomph to it. I wonder, like, is that something you learned in sales or like where does where did that idea come from?

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:58 Yes, I think in a little bit in sales.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:01 And then, you know, it's just it is it's I think it's a sales and a Tyson Mutruxeting tool. It's if you can't, if you can't do the small things well, like, why would a client think you can do the big things. Well and, and so, you know, there's something that I've learned about that's another thing I love is, is teaching new attorneys like how to manage a client relationship. And it's the things that they don't teach you in law school. And, Tyson Mutrux and I actually had a mentor, and he said, the clients don't know the difference between good legal work and bad legal work, but they know the difference between on time work and late work. Yeah. And so it's just another one of those things like, gotta make it pretty, you know, be on time and and really, it is, it's, it's reinforcing to, to our, our staff that our clients are paying a lot of money for. You know, we always say for an hour of your time, they could stay at a five star hotel.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:06 And that's really something to be aware of. Yeah. you know, and be be judicious with that and, you know, value that time and make it your best work.

Allyson 00:27:17 Don't take it for granted. Right. Yeah. Why did you choose sales and was was sales before or after undergrad?

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:24 After.

Allyson 00:27:25 Okay. So why sales?

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:28 I think it was more a process of elimination. just ruling other things out also. Before I finish college, I worked for an orthopedic surgeon, and so I, I had the. I had the opportunity to interact with a lot of sales and Tyson Mutruxeting people. And now, granted, at the time I was 20 and I thought, oh, that would be fun. You get to take lunch to people, which is like very oversimplified. Of what? Like healthcare sales and Tyson Mutruxeting really is. you know, it's a it's a lot of rejection. It's a lot of, just persistence and, and and polishing. And when you get an opportunity to speak to someone that is a decision maker.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:15 Being concise, being pithy and and so I, I think I went into sales, you know, just thinking oh it'd be fun. You know, I like to talk to people. I'm a people person. but it's it's much harder than. Than what I thought it was when I was 20 and I had a sales rep. You know, bringing me snacks.

Allyson 00:28:40 Okay, so I imagine a sales person starting their career being kind of peppy. You know, like, I get full of energy and then you're just hit with with rejection after rejection. Ever. It's like by the end of it, like you're just worn down. Is that. Did you get to that point? That's what I had in my head. But yeah, it's true.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:58 Yeah. I mean, you do, but I would, you know, I think I have a pretty because I had been on the other side too, like I had been behind the desk at the doctor's office. I had been the one they were trying to see for many years when I worked for this orthopedic surgeon.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:12 Yeah. And so, again, it was just a like, hey, they've got a lot on their plate as well. And maybe this isn't a good day. And you know, so you have to try different approaches. And, you know, I think I think I had a pretty thick skin. I would usually joke with people when I was in sales, you know, like eventually you're going to like me, like just just give in. You'll like me eventually. So, so I was sort of I was prepared for that because I'd been on the other side.

Allyson 00:29:40 Yeah. What was the key to getting to the decision makers?

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:46 Well, okay, so the health care compliance attorney in me now cringes when I think about, well, some of the things I did, you know, when I was in sales, because obviously now like as a healthcare attorney, we advise our clients on compliance and anti kickback and inducement, you know, and so, you know, I probably did some stuff as a sales person that, you know, but there are, you know, taking people coffee and, and, and the treats and stuff.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:21 I tried to stay away from the lunches. if I could. just because I didn't find that that was the most quality time. And, you know, sometimes it's just it's it's a lot of money and a lot of effort, and you don't ever really talk to a decision maker.

Allyson 00:30:39 Yeah, you don't really get the bang for the buck. Yeah. Okay, so, what were like some of the the gifts, I guess, that were that would be, what were the best gifts?

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:48 Okay, so this is I wouldn't say it's the best gift, but I think one of the silliest things my sales partner and I did, and this is when this was actually my last. Was it my second year of law school? I was working for a home health company, and we were, you know, so you're you're trying to get physicians to refer patients to you that need inhome, like nursing or physical therapy, like medical medical needs. and my, my sales partner and I. We always sought the sales material from the company.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:26 Was lame. Like, this.

Allyson 00:31:27 Is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:27 Boring. This is lame.

Allyson 00:31:28 Probably no one ever read it either.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:30 So we had an idea and we made, we sort of made homemade s'mores and boxes, and it had graham crackers and peep marshmallows and then pieces of chocolate, and we wrote on it. We'll give you our peeps if you give us your peeps. And so very cheesy.

Allyson 00:31:52 Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:52 Very cheesy.

Allyson 00:31:53 Effective.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:54 It was actually extremely effective. and then another thing we gave, you know, in home health, there's a usually most home health companies have programs to help people, prevent fall prevention, elderly people from falling in their home, which is a good mission. and so we would give our we would give the medical assistance at our accounts. Weeble wobbles, you know. So just like that was just I mean, those were in the days where we were carefree and probably not very compliant, but. And now again, that's what I say. The healthcare compliance attorney in me cringes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:33 But that is something that we do at the law firm, is we we help our our clients with their Tyson Mutruxeting and their advertising. That can just be completely noncompliant. and sometimes we'll have, like, very dire consequences. you know, there can be referrals to the Department of Justice if they're providing.

Allyson 00:32:52 Really.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:53 Gifts, over a certain amount to people that can make referrals for Medicare or Medicaid beneficiaries. So, like I, you know, I joke about it, but like, there can be very serious consequences for people, you know, and usually that's like the bigger stuff. I mean, that's just people straight up paying for referrals or, you know, taking physicians, you know, to paying for vacations or like very costly dinners and things like that. So that has benefited me in helping clients with, you know, hey, when you have salespeople in your health care business, this is this is what you have to do to be compliant. and obviously there's some tension there because a salesperson wants to make sales.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:37 They're not there to make your base salary, they're there to get paid. And usually there's a bonus system and that can be structured, compliant early. it's just, you know, it's it's just an education piece. So I've done that a lot. Now on the, on the lawyers side is helping our healthcare clients with their Tyson Mutruxeting and their advertising and, and being compliant there.

Allyson 00:33:59 I think it's interesting because the same people that you serve now are the same people that you were trying to sell to before. It's just you're just in a different role. Yes. Do you ever use any of the same kind of Tyson Mutruxeting tricks, like the peeps idea?

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:13 not as cheesy.

Allyson 00:34:16 yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:16 But, you know, I mean, sometimes with the it's fun with the, you know, the key companies to think of things that are fun. We had we went to a conference once and it was in Arizona, and it was in the middle of the summer. And so we had we had bows and and snow beach balls.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:34 And of course, then everyone at the conference had a beach ball in the hotel pool, and Tyson Mutrux and I were talked to because they were not happy about the bows and, and snow beach falls in the pool. And, there was another time I really thought it would be funny to have bows and and snow, like tattoos, like temporary tattoos. And, we were doing a giveaway for an iPad. this was at a we did an exhibit booth, and this, this sweet girl put, like, our tattoos all over, and I'm like, I'll just give you the iPad. Like, we won't do a drawing. You win, you know? So that's cool.

Allyson 00:35:09 Yeah. Like the the point is, like, Tyson Mutruxeting doesn't have to be boring. No. And especially because, like, you are, you are like in a niche that people could, like, think, oh, you got to be really like formal and all that. But that's I mean, there are humans too. Like you're dealing with humans.

Allyson 00:35:25 That's that's really. Do you think you would have been so comfortable if you hadn't already been in that sales position to do things like that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:31 No, no, I don't think so.

Allyson 00:35:32 I love the beach ball idea, by the way. Yeah. Who was mad at the hotel or the hotel? Okay, because last time I was at the conference. Yeah, we were like, they're like, well, you didn't pay to be a sponsor. You know, like the last time you see them getting mad.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:43 But yeah, no, we were legit. Like, we weren't we weren't Wedding Crashers or anything. We were legit. But yeah, the hotel was not happy. But it is. It's, you know, it's it's good to have fun. I mean, when you own a business, it's like you put your heart and soul on it and there's no there's no fault in having a little fun.

Allyson 00:36:00 And so I wonder, like, what's your background like? Because, like, you are very personable and I that is something that you I don't know, I don't it's hard to teach.

Allyson 00:36:08 I don't know if you can teach it. So like what is like, where does that come from? Like what's your upbringing like? I'm very curious.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:13 so I was born in Arizona. I'm from. I'm the youngest of five. I think, you know, my, My dad was a high school drama teacher, so, like, I was in the plays as kids. My parents put me in dance lessons. So, you know, I think that is something great, you know? Yeah. Whether it's dance lessons or sports or something like something that just instills some confidence. Sure. and so I've always been comfortable, you know, with speaking and, you know, when I was, when I was a dancer performing, you know, cheerleader in high school, stuff like that. So, you know, I've always considered myself kind of an outgoing person and, like to have fun in what I'm doing sometimes. Maybe too much fun sometimes. Maybe I should be more serious.

Allyson 00:37:08 But especially, like the sales job, I'm assuming there's a lot of fun being had from at least from movies I've seen about, like the sales position.

Allyson 00:37:15 Like for like the health care industry, it seems like it's like all parties all the time, right?

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:18 It can be. It can't be. Yeah.

Allyson 00:37:20 Interesting. So what, like, what was that turning point where you were like, okay, I want to be a lawyer. Like what? What shifted? Like, why why did you go from item in sales to. I'm gonna go to law school. That's a big difference.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:31 Right. Again, I think it was a process of elimination. and one of my brothers, was a lawyer. and he has had he passed away in 2022, but he had a large workmen's compensation firm here in Arizona. That was my first job out of law school. Gotcha. And he was very successful. His firm is still still in existence.

Allyson 00:37:54 And and even after he left.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:56 And they're doing very well. And, so I just there was a process of elimination where I'm like, okay, I'm in sales. I'm in my early 30s. I need to figure out what I want to do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:10 I saw my brother Chad, and he was he was a lot like me. We're very we were very similar, personality wise. Like, people would just always say, like, you know, Allison is like Chad with breasts. I hope you could edit that out.

Allyson 00:38:28 no, let's stay in it. Okay. That's good.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:29 So. So, you know, he was, you know, he was my big brother, and he was my mentor. and, and so I thought, I, I'm going to go to law school, and, there happened to be a night law school program in Phoenix at the time. And so that was an opportunity for me to continue working. and, and to go to law school at the same time.

Allyson 00:38:53 How hard.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:53 Is this? A process of elimination?

Allyson 00:38:55 Yeah. You mentioned, like, it was difficult to get like how? Like you were working all day and then go to law school at night. Like how many hours? Like how many years did that take?

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:02 So it was supposed to be a four year program.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:07 Tyson Mutrux and I did it in three.

Allyson 00:39:09 So you're crazy. You're both nuts. Okay, but you have work ethic. That's good, that's good.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:12 Yeah, yeah. That was the interesting thing about the night law school program is that, like, just very dedicated people, you know, totally adults in the room because these were people that were very driven. and so we went in. It was a it was supposed to be a four year part time program. we went in and, you know, we did summer courses. And then really, at the end of my second summer, I realized if I really wanted to, I could be done in my third year. And so I think I took almost half of my law school credits my last year.

Allyson 00:39:50 Oh my gosh.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:52 So that was wild. But I just, you know, you get to the point where you're like, I've worked all day. And then I go to school all night. And if I can get into the workforce one year earlier.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:01 Totally worth it.

Allyson 00:40:02 I mean, that's that's a significant difference. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I do wonder, like, you went from a sales position and you were doing sales in law school, right?

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:12 Yes.

Allyson 00:40:13 What was it like going? And you. So did you start working right out of law school for someone? Is that what you said?

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:20 I did, I did. I, So I took the bar exam. I got married three days later. Oh my God. And then right after that, I started working for my brother until I was licensed.

Allyson 00:40:31 Okay, so you had a salary, at least? Because I was wondering. Because, like, if you went straight into opening your own law firm, it would be kind of hard to go from making a salary to to not making a salary. That's kind of tough, right?

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:41 And that was one of the things Tyson Mutrux was always, you know, I've been an employee. And and so it was giving him that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:48 Man, you're crazy to work for someone else. Yeah. Like you've got a license to print money. Why would you work for someone else?

Allyson 00:40:54 True. Yeah. No, I mean, it's it's good advice. It really is good advice. What? What was the reason why you left working for him?

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:01 My brother?

Allyson 00:41:02 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:03 so I my brother, like I mentioned, he his firm was a workmen's compensation firm, and so sort of tangential to that is Social Security disability. if if people get injured on the job and they can't go back to work or transition to new work. And so I ran the Social Security disability department for a while, for a couple of years, and I just wasn't extremely passionate about, about that type of law.

Allyson 00:41:31 So was he already doing so social Security disability or. Okay. So it's not something you started up for? Oh, okay. No. Did you kind of take over that part of the firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:39 I took over? Yeah, that practice area and, you know, learned a lot.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:46 I mean, obviously, I learned a ton. I was just, you know, I had resources, but it was like, here you go. Volume practice, you know? and, and so I did that for a couple of years, but I did get to, you know, to the point where I, I really was questioning, You know. Is this what I want to do with my law career? Is this going to give me a path, you know, to to law firm ownership? And, you know, again, my brother and I had some some hard conversations, and he's like, Allyson, I think you're like me. And you sort of want to be the boss. and, and, and so, you know, that was that's when I, that's when I called Tyson Mutrux and he had been at the big firm and he said, yeah, you know, it's really hard to be a 43 year old junior associate. And, and, you know, I think we could I think we have complementary skills.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:42 And and so yeah, it's interesting. Like before my, before my brother passed away, I was talking to him and he's like, it's really amazing what you know, what what you've done. And I'm, you know, I'm really proud of you. And so that was like a nice full circle moment.

Allyson 00:43:00 Was he upset when you left? No, no.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:03 No, I think, you know, I think that was, That was something that, It was a mutual conversation. And that's always hard when it's family, you know? and but, you know, I mean, the family relationship is more important, and, you know, and fortunately for both of us, it was like it wasn't like I was like, oh, but I love it. And I want to do this forever, you know. And, so that that was nice.

Allyson 00:43:34 All right. So based on what you said, that he said, was did you have problems, having with him telling you what to do? Is that part of the problem?

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:46 I think reflecting on it, yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:49 There were times where, you know, I didn't like decisions or. But now, being a law firm owner, I can absolutely see where he was coming from.

Allyson 00:44:01 Oh, completely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:02 Yeah. You know, for the most part, I can see and you know. And now when I, when I do reviews with employees or I give them feedback or I coach them, I'm just like, wow, ten years ago this would have been the type of stuff Chad Snow would have told me that I hated, you know, and and here I am, you know, the shoes on the other foot. And it's like I, you know, I'm, I'm running a business and and when, you know, especially when you're a young professional or a young employee, you don't you don't even contemplate that, you know.

Allyson 00:44:33 All right. So you call Tyson Mutrux. I'm assuming it didn't. The decision wasn't made in one phone call. So talk me, walk us through the progression that you had with those conversations and the decision to actually you to join up together.

Allyson 00:44:45 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:46 So it wasn't one phone call. we talked about it on the phone. we met a couple times. Tyson Mutrux, you know, had been my friend in law school. He had been at my wedding two days after we took the bar exam. you know, so he knows my husband, our our families are close and you know. So. Families met a couple times just to talk about, you know, really starting this firm. What are we going to do?

Allyson 00:45:15 So the whole family is met. the couples, the spouses? Yeah, yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:20 and, you know, what are we going to do until, like, the firm really has legs and and can support us, and, you know, so really, in its infant phase, it was it was sort of a part time. Let's see, you know, if we can if we could take some clients from the big firm with him. he actually worked in political advocacy for a while, like, for a drug manufacturer.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:49 and I stayed at my brother's firm for a while to wind down there. while he sort of taught me some health law things. And, you know, the firm had a few clients. and then it was after a while, not not too soon after, we formed the firm that our external client approached us about coming inhouse.

Allyson 00:46:10 Interesting. Yeah. Also, like, very good timing. That seems like a really good timing. Yeah. Did it ever. Whenever Chad passed, did ever, like, cross your mind? Like, maybe I could go and take over his firm and do my own thing over there. Or did I ever cross your mind? No. No, no. You were happy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:26 Yeah, I was happy. He's got, you know, he's got a he's he built a great firm. and he has, you know, wonderful partners and, and, so, you know, that's, that's his legacy and, you know, and they're doing a wonderful job hearing on his legacy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:47 And, and by that time, you know, that was, just about four years ago since he passed. And so, you know, Tyson Mutrux and I were starting to grow. We at that point, we had more attorneys working for us, and, and we're we're a little bit more established. So we felt like we were off to the races.

Allyson 00:47:05 Who do you think between you and Tyson Mutrux was more the one pushing, kind of spearheading, wanting to start your own firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:11 Oh, me for sure.

Allyson 00:47:12 Really?

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:12 Yeah. I'm. I'm the dreamer of the two of us. I mean, I'm I'm the one. but I will say, like, Tyson Mutrux has, you know, he's really he's really gotten there where he's like, yeah, I want to spend more time running the firm, too. I want to do the cases that I want to do. you know, he's really he's really grown to like, litigation more than he thought he ever would. some of our clients are, being sued by Eli Lilly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:46 and they're compounding pharmacies and med spas, and so he's we're we're sort of the subject matter experts in that litigation, and he's like a really I really like the litigation. And I want to do the lawyering I want to do. But, you know, I really want to really want to run the law firm more to and develop sort of these products and this annuity type of business. but I'm I'm definitely the dreamer. I mean, I'm the dreamer. I'm the one that's like, what's next? What's next? And, you know, we always joke that Tyson Mutrux is the one that makes sure that, you know, we have malpractice insurance and, you know, you know, all of the all all of the he understands the the technology systems and, you know, so it's it's a good partnership. It's very complementary.

Allyson 00:48:33 So how do you all divide up leadership and responsibilities. Because that is interesting what you just said I, I assume that that was all on you. But like so how do you divide that up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:42 So we have we have an admin meeting, every week with our firm administrator. and I think it's, you know, pretty naturally there's things that, we just sort of have a tendency or to to take, you know, when when we're talking about, whether the firm runs on a server or the cloud. I feel like an old person, you know, the cloud with the air quotes around it. And, some of those system things I'm going to defer more to Tyson Mutrux on our, on, on some of the infrastructure things. when it comes to some of the, the Tyson Mutruxeting training, support staff, you know, I before I got into sales and Tyson Mutruxeting, I worked in law firms. and, you know, as I was a file girl in high school, and I worked in law firms as a nonlawyer. So that's one thing I like to do is work on the on the support staff training. Like, how can you identify how you can support your attorneys and leverage their time more? Because that's really what it's all about.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:59 and especially in a firm like ours where it's hard to build processes because our clients are generally business entities and they just come to you with a problem. And it's sometimes similar to a problem another client has had. sometimes it's a completely new business idea and no one's ever done it before and we don't even know if it's legal. And so from that standpoint, I imagine it's very different from what you do. Sure. Where there is, I can automate this and I can put a process in place. And so we've sort of just as we go, we sort of figure out those, these are the things that I have sort of a tendency, to want to handle. And these are the things that that Tyson Mutrux will handle.

Allyson 00:50:52 Yeah. I do hear that our love from business like business, business type of law firms where like they have problems sort of automate automating things, which I completely understand, especially a lot of it is like you're dealing with like the decision makers, like dead on you. I'm assuming you are like, right.

Allyson 00:51:07 And you're not like dealing with lower level employees. You're dealing with like the higher, higher ups as what you're doing. So I think that that part's kind of interesting. Like if Tyson Mutrux's wanting to do litigation versus like some of this productized stuff like that is drastically different. Like that is a system that you can't you can create a system for the litigation stuff, but not for the other stuff. No.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:24 Yeah, because the other stuff has to be updated as well. You know, as, as laws change. And so that's sort of an ongoing, you know, how do we maintain that library of information and what's the cost associated of maintaining, you know, that information and make sure making sure it's all up to date. You know, like if, if we do a 50 state survey, on on a topic, I mean, it's accurate. Yeah. As of the time you do it. But, you know, if it's something that you want to continue to monitor. That takes work and that takes time.

Allyson 00:52:02 So curious, are you all doing anything with AI?

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:06 sure. So we use Westlaw and there is there's a, you know, some AI components of Westlaw that can help with, with contracts, contract drafting, specifically so that we can tailor it to, to healthcare clients. we can tailor it to bigger clients or smaller clients, you know, more simplified, contracts, design tools for some of the Tyson Mutruxeting has been, is is something that we're starting to work with so that, you know, if we want to, like, sort of spin up a Tyson Mutruxeting piece for, for a conference or if we, if we speak at a conference, we usually like to develop sort of like a tool or some take home material for the attendees.

Allyson 00:53:00 Beach balls?

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:00 Yeah, not beach balls, but yeah, sort of practical, tools or checklists that they can use in their operations. And, and so, you know, there's there's some AI tools that can be used to like, put some make it look pretty sure.

Allyson 00:53:16 Right. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:17 and but I would absolutely be. that's one thing that I am interested in is how can I help us now in our. In our practice area. I'm not I'm not necessarily worried that it's a replacement. I think it's an absolute compliment. you know, if sometimes clients ask really, really hard questions and I'm like, well, that is a 50 state survey because the answer is different in all 50 states. Right. And that's research. Now I can have, you know, Westlaw or practical law. I can give that the question and that. That could give you some, some idea in some reference point baseline. Yeah. And then, you know, we can, you know, we can price out a 50 state survey. but, you know, and the clients, you know, generally depending on their sophistication level, especially if you're dealing with inhouse counsel, like, they know I ought not rely on this solely. Sure. You know, this is this is a good reference point, a good starting point.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:29 But it's not it's not.

Allyson 00:54:32 Not.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:32 It's not stamped and approved by Bozeman Sno.

Allyson 00:54:36 Very. It's a it's sort of informal in a way. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:38 Especially when you're in, in when you're in the regulatory space and in healthcare, like you're just in the weeds and, you know, one, one word, can mean different things in different states. So.

Allyson 00:54:53 It's like it's all weeds with when it comes. All weeds. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:55 All weeds. Yeah.

Allyson 00:54:57 All right. Before we wrap things up, if someone wants to reach out to you, they have questions. If they want to, you know, run something by you. What's the best way of getting in touch with you?

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:04 best way to get in touch with me is I will give you my direct email. It is a snow snowball at B, as in boy S is in Sam Lau usa.com. And Marc and I realized at one point we were tired of spelling boson snow law. Com so we just embraced the BS law.

Allyson 00:55:26 I love it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:27 And yes, you know we're like, hey, if Morris and Forrester can have mofo, we can have BS mofos.

Allyson 00:55:31 The best it is. Com is the best.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:33 It is. Yeah it is so yeah. So bs usa.com.

Allyson 00:55:37 I'm just sad you couldn't get BS law com because that would have been even better.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:40 Yeah we had to add the USA. I know someone had BS law.

Allyson 00:55:43 That's a that's a bummer.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:44 Okay I don't know if they're making fun of lawyers or if they're an actual law firm.

Allyson 00:55:48 It doesn't matter silly. It's a great it's a with a check it out. Check it out. You had mentioned, how you kind of, like, think about, like, the future. Like what's next and everything. So I wonder, like, if you can talk about, like, what is next for girls Firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:03 I think so what's next is. Well, recruiting is always, always, something that we are ongoing recruiting for and recruiting for health lawyers, especially health lawyers that have, you know, are sort of like senior to midlevel, midlevel to senior is extremely challenging.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:29 because normally you're pulling from some of these big Am 100 or Am 200 firms and, you know, so you're sort of trying to find people that are like, okay, I'm burnt out at the big law firm. Maybe I actually have more opportunity at a smaller firm. So recruiting talent is always on the list and that is never ending. because ultimately, you know, Tyson Mutrux and I know that that's that's how we are able to, to focus more on the operation and the and the growth of the firm and working on some of these products, that, that become annuity business and subscription business. And, so we were we were able to recruit, we have a partner in Indiana. we were able to recruit her from, from one of the big law firms. Katie is wonderful. and so we're always just looking for talent, and and that's the hardest piece. I, I'll be in the mastermind tomorrow, and I'm sure that'll be my topic in the hot seat.

Allyson 00:57:35 Can't wait.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:35 It's recruiting.

Allyson 00:57:36 Allison, thanks for doing this.

Allyson 00:57:37 Really appreciate it. I appreciate you taking time out of your day to do this. It's been great. I really I really love hearing about your background. Everything else. I really appreciate.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:44 It. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Allyson 00:57:48 Nice. Very cool.